What is going to stop SUPER GROUPS?

Smoogle

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Mar 12, 2019
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Just going to say this here not really a fan of the MMO/Online survival games but this game interest me purely out of it's graphical design. I am exhausted with all these survival online games because each of them seem to follow the same formula.

That really isn't my question though since this game will most likely have a public server I'm curious how you're going to handle super groups, these groups that can be seen on games like ATLAS...so on so forth had mega groups that just dominated and run like machines, you had all sorts of different personalities and hackers finding ways to exploit and grief. EVERY Dev says the same thing in regards to cheaters but these people are just a few steps ahead each time.

How are you going to handle super groups? Will the game have NPC that dynamically make the world more difficult for super groups, will it assist smaller players...I just can't see a solid reason for someone to want to play single player.
 
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Snedin

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This is a solid question. for me maybe less about cheaters or hackers, but more towards established alpha tribes dominating a server like on RUST or ARK. new tribes and especially single players get their heads pushed in from day one without any chance of growing as a tribe.

This is the main reason why I always stayed away from PVP servers and opted for PVE only.

It feels like a community brainstorm session is in order here! :D
 

Smoogle

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Yeah it really is I just noticed it on a few RPers stream like fairlight and others when they went on public the servers were dominated by the chinese, so much so it becam a meme. How do you logically handle super groups, for new players it's not fun no matter what there is always some god tier group, highly player dependent (you hope players actively play to have fun)...its just so much reasons why i feel if you focus on creating a single player sandbox game with so much to do it won't really matter if players are on or not (enhanced fun if you do have some friends to play with)....I dunno my opinion.
 

DrBadCompany

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Even if that thread is over a month old, let me throw in my 2 cents.
I´m a pvp player out of choice, I like the thrill and the excitment of games which supports true pvp, with all included fun and flaws and given risks. I´m no friend of griefing or running around as higher skilled player to farm low level players, nor am I a supporter of shady massive amount of player guilds becoming alha tribe on servers, but the mechanics of pvp I like a lot. To prevent waves of players, no matter from which country or region they´re, there´s in my honest opinion only few things, the develoment can provide the playerbase with. First of all, a fair amount of time needed to become a good and well equipped pvp charcter, there´s no need to fight a group of 20 people geared up with stones and sticks, while carring a fancy scoped long distance rifle and an infinite amount of expensive ammonition if the shear amount of enemies will kill you a blink of an eye, but you should be able to defend yourself properly, if the player has spend a fair maount of time into leveling his toon and gear to go against larger groups of lower level players. Secondly, I´m actually not sure how the mining and gathering system here ingame works, but I was always a fan of different areas and rules of pvp. Imagine, there should be always a fine line between gathering resources and the risk to lose them in a pvp based game, no matter what people say who play only PvE for their own reason.PvP based games only work for me under the cricumstances " no risk, no fun", the rarest resources and the nicest possible loot should always come with an equal sort of risk involved.

In case of the thread topic, back on track, there should be or must be a way to get into common safe areas, such a non pvp zones, where killing other players is prohibited and looting players is by game mechanic impossible. Right balancing and the strengh of player structures is an important fact aswell. If you need a boatload of resources and time to unlock crafting tables by leveling up your ability to craft structures and the other players can destroy your buildings by their hands, or equipped with a wooden spoon just after spawning fresh a few hours before on the server, there´ll be no growing need by the community to build their own habitat on the planet surface.
Key must be a well developed land deed and lease system, preventing games from being overrunned by large groups of people. if you place a structure on the surface the enemy shouldn`t be able to place his structures, like ladders fundations or walls, just beside your fence and jump over it as example.

Another game mechanic that prevents the playerbase, getting steamrolled by large amount of players, is plain and simple politics. If player can play together and forge alliances with others over an active ingame chat, spam and kids talk aside, I mean serious chat function, like calling for help in global or getting quick help by people on their friendlist or even by unknown friendly players and groups in the regional chat, can help defending the game getting overrun by massive groups of one timers, who log in once with a group of friends and terrorize the noob zones as of their own liking.

Last but not least, the for me most diverse possibility to keep a community close and a bunch of jerks out of the server is sadly said, "the payment model" a game that comes with the worst and almost not to control type of access is and always was F2P, if there´s no money involed, it attracts the worst group of playerbase the easiest, that people lurcking around, only online to make others pixel life miserable are mostly not willing to pay a dime for their own excitement, end of story.
Even if I´m being no friend of monthly paid gaming myself, it clearly shows that the communities in such games are often more adult and civil.
Next possibilty could be one time paid access, like it is now with the founders card system. People who´re willing to pay for their entertainment are often more aware that the rules of proper online gaming are made of, playing with people, instead of playing against them. So time will tell which road this game during the develoment will go.

Hopefully you appriciate my 2 cents of personal opinion.
 

Smoogle

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Mar 12, 2019
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great response!

You know what game executed PVP well. ULTIMA ONLINE, the community formed together to fight against 'reds' players who grief or killed a lot, those RED players were forced into their own city, CAT(something) I can't remember what it was called but they could do all their trading, shopping stuff in this town. It was sort of like a pirate town for the worse players, you'd basically be on the edge the entire time forced to get goods in this town because you're around the vilest people, lol.

in the main city britiania this was like a safe zone where the guards (AI) would instantly chase and kill these red players off, players who were veterans would protect new players, warn people not to "CROSS THE X ROADS" because there was players murdering and looting.

BUT ultima online seem to have a hardcore ROLEPLAYER community so it made the world so much more involved, to get on a good RP server you for these new modern games you have to fill out forms and do all sorts of junk to even get a chance. I hope they do an OFFICIAL PUBLIC RP server, but most of all since these games come out every month, I hope they put tons of emphasis on a SINGLE player component so you don't need other players to have a full content experience.

They should look at KENSHI or the devs should all play it to get the idea of what to do to make the game world feel alive for people who SOLO play.

FOR varies reasons i suggest this - friends end up playing another game, scheduling conflicts..so on so forth...if i can log on a game and get a full experience playing alone and be immersed in the world, thats fantastic. THIS is the missing component for online survival games and why SINGLE player survival games are craved for and so much more successful.
 

Shady

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Apr 20, 2019
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This thread is a rather interesting topic. I'll try keep the focus on Population Zero but overall this is a major challenge which needs to be faced however I've not seen one viable option as of yet. These groups do more damage than good to a game. It's very hard to punish extremely large groups with that not affecting smaller groups.

Let's take for example we cap how many people can be inside a clan they're able to just create a few other clans and just ally with each other, sure it might just slightly annoy them however it will not stop the issue at all and at the same time you damage the small clans that may try to expand. Also what do we call as to big?

Time for a solution, this is the only reasonable solution that I see. Official servers should have rules and common etiquette to be followed, how these rules should be determined is through the community discussing and agreeing on it. A load of moderators which cover all time-zones could be brought in who will look over the servers. These are volunteers, it works on Minecraft, Ark & many other games that's how servers are moderated. The main issue is abuse so a firm part of hierarchy in staff and ensuring that staff don't play on the servers they look over. The 'simple' solution would be for everyone to run private servers where moderation and rules would be more up to the server so that there is a play-style to fit everyone.
 

Smoogle

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Yeah, sort of like a GM on official servers that moderates certain stuff from happening, they have to have zero association to any group though - not be a part of the server in terms of playing otherwise things will get messy. Really ultima online is perfect to look at..if groups get to powerful or alliances the game should just become more difficult or they will need the smaller groups...I don't know how exactly this will be executed but if they figure it out props to them. I still say for a single player or smaller groups there should just be tons of content to focus on that directs you in a different direction than those supergroups.
 

Amalie

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Feb 28, 2019
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Hey, guys! I always keep an eye on this thread, because I share your concerns for this matter.
I can't tell you for sure right now how exactly we are going to solve problems like this because we are still in early development and have some other crucial tasks to complete. I will keep in touch with devs regarding this matter and give heads up once we have info to share.
You have mentioned here a bunch of interesting cases and ideas. Thank you so much for sharing, I'll make sure this all goes to our devs.
 

Shady

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Apr 20, 2019
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Been thinking about it quite a lot. Another way to go about this is if you're a certain level you will lose rep if you kill a player which is below a certain level. Losing rep could cause you to level slower or lose levels if done repeatedly. However the main issue is with these newer players attacking the higher levels because they know they'll lose reputation. Therefore if the freshies does any damage or shoot bullets within a 10m radius of the attacker then they won't lose reputation if they kill the freshie as it was self-defense. There is always ways to exploit this but I think it would be a decent counter-measure.
 

MinuteMan

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Population Zero will feature Factions, Guilds and Groups.
Amalie mentioned in #general chat on Discord on April 15th that "[...] factions are hostile to each other". That seems obvious, but what about being hostile within the same faction? If teamkill and/or even friendly fire aren't options -- for me both should be --, so the question actually is: "What is going to prevent unbalanced factions?".
 

Amalie

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We want to create a system, which will give players reasons NOT to kill each other (just like in real life).
So probably we will not have any mechanical restrictions, but there will be reasons not to kill each other thoughtlessly. We are working in different ideas and will share more detail with you in the future. You might like to share your thoughts about what these reasons could be!
Also, we will be closely listening to your feedback for any upcoming updates.
 

RandomVengeance

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Apr 26, 2019
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I feel that once a game becomes a job it kills the fun, trying to keep up with the large group on servers that go around and wipe players is what kills the game for me. Here are some of my ideas, I know some sound crazy but it’s just some thoughts.

Negative effect for killing new or lower level players (reduced XP, or something similar, bad rep system)

Maybe have all the “bad rep” player only to spawn/live/hunt in a specific area with other bad rep players.

Maybe have some sort of law system
where if you constantly keep killing lower level players the world spawns creatures or NPCS to hunt you down
maybe a bounty system that would give incentives for guilds to group up and take out the alpha groups

limit PVP within same faction, you won’t be able to kill same factions(only duel, for a percentage of resources) but full on PVP with different factions(similar to other MMOs)

Or random events that the world would spawn, according to that super groups over all “level/power” to challenge them. These events would scale and always keep that guild in check.

Some kind of mechanic where if several small guilds come together to fight one super group, they are able to spawn a giant creature to fight for them to make the fight fair. For example if 4 small guilds go to this one place and all pay/sacrifice a certain amount of resources, the “planet” will help them by giving them a weapon or a creature. I think this can help fighting alpha tribes that have been dominating and wiping smaller guilds. Of course it would have to be balanced.

I know some of these ideas sound far fetched , but I hope the developers puts something in place.
 

UpInSmOkE_1984

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We want to create a system, which will give players reasons NOT to kill each other (just like in real life).
So probably we will not have any mechanical restrictions, but there will be reasons not to kill each other thoughtlessly. We are working in different ideas and will share more detail with you in the future. You might like to share your thoughts about what these reasons could be!
Also, we will be closely listening to your feedback for any upcoming updates.
Would it be possible to take a page from the old school Game Ultima Online where people how kill others without cause get flagged and after so much they then turn into murders. Maybe have zones where murders are killed by "Guards" or something. Not sure just a thought. I just found this game in a youtube video and had to check it out.
 
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Amalie

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Would it be possible to take a page from the old school Game Ultima Online where people how kill others without cause get flagged and after so much they then turn into murders. Maybe have zones where murders are killed by "Guards" or something. Not sure just a thought. I just found this game in a youtube video and had to check it out.
As I said before Population Zero a free loot pvp game and therefore can't restrict pvp. But we are looking into natural ways to structure pvp system.
 

WinterWizard

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I think it would be good to include an increasing value to the guild if they attack people. Take some from WOW where whoever strikes first gets flagged (whole group) and they are considered the agressor. Each succesive time the bounty, or penalty, or some other form of incentive to not kill increases. Once it gets high enough people will join up to take them down. This can erode with time, or being attacked by other guilds, factions etc. I enjoy PVP but hate losing days worth of work just so some large guild can wipe my building and steal everything I own. Along this line it would be nice to have a small safe where you can place a few items that cannot be looted to start over after death, or things your saving for a build, etc. The more ideas we throw out there the better the game will be! Keep them coming
 

MinuteMan

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Some suggestions:

  • An Alignment System (or Reputation System as mentioned by others above) that represents your actions towards other players and the enviroment around you. So good actions make you gain alignment; evil actions make you lose alignment; and also inbetween alignments that varies when doing good and evil actions. The amount of alignment you gain or lose could vary like, for example, losing alignment when you kill a veteran or a newbie player. Reference: Life is Feudal MMO.
  • Flag System. Like others mentioned above and also something that could expose them in the map.
  • A Loot System that when you kill someone you have X seconds to loot, or be looted when you die. The amount of time you have to loot someone could also be influenced by your alignment and if the player is veteran or newbie. Reference: Gloria Victis.
  • Friendly Fire enable for everyone. What could exist is damage reduction for players within same guild - Guild.
Reasons to not kill players within same faction:

  • Regional Items System. Subdivide the biomes into regions that all crafting and/or gathering resources in those regions receive a mark showing its region origin. These regional items should be useful in high tier crafting that will require a number of regional items marked with a random region. This will encourage a Faction to spread in the world and, most important, encourage trade between players within the same faction since you or your guild will be based in one region but will end up needing crafts or resources that is produced by other players in a different region. So, an interesting reason to not kill players within same faction since you need good relations with them for trading. Reference: Life is Feudal MMO.
  • Lore and Quests should encourage players within same faction to cooperate to accomplish quests that requires numbers like defeating world raid bosses.
  • Raiding 'alarm', as mentioned by Dima aka Lagsalot in a interview youtube video, has the possibility to inhibit some players from doing it since they will get exposed anyways (so if them being in the same faction, that could be even worse if not justified).
  • Log System that show actions done by you and guildmates and, of course, enemies actions aswell (maybe not showing their names in the log, but at least showing that an enemy did something to you and/or your base). Reference: Conan Exiles.
Reasons to kill players within same faction:
  • Prevent griefing like someone decide to build and block a path or a resource node nearby your base.
  • As mentioned above, Lore and Quests should encourage players for cooperation, but it doesn't mean players should be forced to roleplaying. Afaik, RP servers won't be a thing in PZ - not in its earlier days, at least.
Bad suggestions given by others, in my opinion:

  • The idea that a small groups receive some divine assistance coming from nowhere is ridiculous. I mean, if a super group end up existing in a server, the small groups should organize to take them down by themselves, uniting their forces. Don't forget that this game is about Faction aswell. Survival MMO (and mostly Sandbox) involves "politics" between groups, specially in a persistent server.
  • Trading NPCs acting as 'guards'.
 
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Smoogle

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The thing is players binding together can only work for a limited amount of time against a super group that never sleeps and has players active 24/7, I really have no idea. It's always why i suggest the games have a strong focus on single player aspects (PVE I guess) so you don't have to involve yourself into that type of stuff.

I think EVE ONLINE has the coolest ideas...but its all player dependent. I remember reading a story about a player joining a gigantic dominate faction only to betray them and take everything from them forming some sort of ultimate group to destroy them from inside...but again that is like some HARDCORE roleplayers. lol
 

DarkSlayerRose

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I will be honest a lot of good ideas here but most of it seems to stem from the fact "I don't like PvP but want to play on a PvP server as long as I am not inconvenienced" point of view I play both Ark and Conan exiles and have been on both sides of the street on this one (been in mega tribes and small two man ones) but when you restrict how the vast majority of "PvP" players play because the few that don't really want to play "PvP" or just play PvP when they want or on there terms most people will just go to another game where they can play the way they want like how I quit because they took the name of the tribe and person out of the logs on Conan exiles because at that point what was I to do? Trust whoever I asked to be honest that they attacked me? (Hahaha! Good luck!) Or attack people at random and hope I got who attacked me? So I quit playing until they made it a server option if they hadn't I wouldn't have played it again or bought there dlc (all of it btw) you don't want to PvP fine I am sure they will have a PvE servers so play there and I am sure they will have small clan server's as well but considering what I have seen so far they want to create more ways to play not restrict how you play
 

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